Missing the point of Mari?

[Strelok]

I'm not sure if there's a Mari forum, but I figured this post was more suited to this general forum anyway...

So I've been watching several Mari videos, and while the DT guys do their usual teaching excellence, I can't help but feel that Mari seems to be rather burdened down with options and settings, not to mention what appears to be a really unusual and time-consuming design.

Not like I have a problems with options though! What I mean is it seems that every three seconds you have to change something else that takes your attention away from the actual job-at-hand of texture painting: Continuous selecting/deselecting, edge mask on/off/on/off/on/off..., rotate, bake, rotate, zoom, clear buffer...

I could go on and on, but what I'm saying is I don't see how Mari could be in any way efficient and aside from the ability to use 30K textures, I don't see any advantage it may have over, say, Mudbox, Zbrush, Body Paint or even Photoshop.

On the other hand, I consider a strictly projection-based approach to be almost 'counter-3D', or at least counter-intuitive, and it seems to create more problems than solutions.

No, I don't have Mari. I was thinking about giving the trial a whirl, but I'm not so sure I see the point of that after watching some of the videos.

So what am I missing here? Obviously there are those who consider it to be a powerful program, possibly even some new industry standard, but it seems like it could suck the creativity right out of you with all the messing about in the interface that seems to need to be constantly done.

On the other hand, while Mudbox may not be quite as capable as Mari (and I'm not so sure if that's even a fair statement), I can load a model into Mudbox and just get at it without half an hour of project setup, and never-ending changing of options - I can just paint and sculpt and be creative and have fun AND get my project done quickly.

Mari, in a nutshell (IMO), just looks like entirely too much work for not much additional benefit, but on top of that it just doesn't look very 'fun' - like using an abacus instead of a calculator, just so you can say "I can use an abacus".

Again, this isn't in any way any kind of criticism against Justin, Kyle, or Eddie - they do their unwavering and professional best as always.

[dillster]

It would be better to give the trial version a go before deciding. Otherwise your post might be a bit premature. Why not do the free trial and come back with your findings and questions later.

[Strelok]

Well perhaps it might be better for me to be able to form an opinion if I actually tried the Mari demo, but Eddie, Justin and Kyle are pretty damn good at demonstrating how to use a program, and I see Eddie having to go through all kinds of steps before even laying down the first brush stroke.

Plus I know about projection painting and to me that's always seemed like defeating the purpose of painting in 3D in the first place. Not to mention, Mari seems to have no symmetry painting mode, which really baffles me. Symmetry is a pretty necessary thing, for many things, not merely a novelty or time-saving trick. For example, many animals, particularly reptiles and insects, have symmetry in their markings.

I just have to wonder how much of Mari's status is just hype due to the overwhelming success of a few projects it's been used on, as opposed to actual admiration and respect from the professionals working in the trenches day after day.

But I think I will give the trial a whirl, just to see if I'm missing something. My senses and prejudices could be completely off target this time, although I think I can usually tell if I'm going to like a program or not.

if nothing else, maybe Mari's success will force Autodesk to give Mudbox some more advanced features and bug fixes.

[dillster]

.....Plus I know about projection painting and to me that's always seemed like defeating the purpose of painting in 3D in the first place. Not to mention, Mari seems to have no symmetry painting mode, which really baffles me. Symmetry is a pretty necessary thing, for many things, not merely a novelty or time-saving trick. For example, many animals, particularly reptiles and insects, have symmetry in their markings.

I just have to wonder how much of Mari's status is just hype due to the overwhelming success of a few projects it's been used on, as opposed to actual admiration and respect from the professionals working in the trenches day after day.

Good points. Projection painting is one of those things that is approached way different in many programs. Bodypaint makes it a piece of cake, Mari takes the long way in comparison. Let us know how you feel when you have the trial done.

[caffeineadic]

You could say the same thing about photoshop.

Mari is just another step forward.

Mari just does not paint "statically", I saw a video where one of the artists working on King King, was editing a T-Rex in a fully textured animated sequence. The artist was able to scrub the animation and edit the model, all within Mari.

[Jgreasley]

Well perhaps it might be better for me to be able to form an opinion if I actually tried the Mari demo, but Eddie, Justin and Kyle are pretty damn good at demonstrating how to use a program, and I see Eddie having to go through all kinds of steps before even laying down the first brush stroke.

I just have to wonder how much of Mari's status is just hype due to the overwhelming success of a few projects it's been used on, as opposed to actual admiration and respect from the professionals working in the trenches day after day.
.

Hi

I'm Jack Greasley, The product manager for Mari at The Foundry. I can appreciate your questioning. It is difficult to judge a workflow without trying it. Most of the setup shown in the videos is a one off thing that the artists will configure once. Just to reassure myself I just checked and from the desktop to start painting in Mari.....

1. Click Mari Icon
2. New project icon
3. Choose file
4. Ok

The response from the industry has been fantastic and based entirely on evaluating Mari extensively. One large customer in particular evaluated Mari for a year against both commercial and internal alternatives and found their artists were 30-40% faster using Mari. This was the same artists painting the same large set of production assets.

It may not be to your particular taste and I understand that, but it's reputation is based directly off artist opinion rather than hype.

Why not give it a go? We have a free 15 day trial on our website and I'd really appreciate your feedback and suggestions.

Jack

[dillster]

Feedback from one of the Mari main men, it can't get much better than that. Thanks Jack.

[Strelok]

Thank you so much for your reply, Jack!

To be fair, and based entirely off what I've seen in the videos here, Mari DOES in fact have a few features that I'm impressed with and could probably really make good use of.

For one, ptex. Although Mudbox also does ptex, Mari's implementation seems to be much more advanced.
For another, massive texture size. 4K is good, but there have been many times I wish I could paint in 8K, although as a generalist I don't have much need to go beyond that.
For another, Mari's ability to paint on a UV patch looks really good. Mudbox's UV map painting is unpredictable and often kind of wonky and hit or miss.
It's also worth noting that as it stands now you can't send an individual patch to Photoshop from Mudbox, as it seems to only be aware of the patch in the 0-1 UV space when sending to Photoshop.
And although I'm kind of baffled about it (from only watching videos, obviously), Mari's manner of selection seems to be rather advanced and probably very useful.
I just wish you guys had symmetry, since I've come to depend on that a lot. Although there are easy enough ways around that.

Okay, you talked me into it and I'll give the trial a go as soon as I can budget some time for it. Be warned though I may come and pester you on your forums.

Oh and I wasn't accusing Mari's reputation as being a result only of its use in successful ventures, I was just speculating, since I know we've all seen those things that become some "flavor of the month", but have no lasting appeal. Not accusing Mari of anything though, just thinking out loud.

[Jgreasley]

http://www.thefoundry.co.uk/articles...tive-workflow/

Perfect timing for this thread.

Strelok, I'd be really pleased to get your feedback.

[eddie]

Hi Strelok,

Mari is just like most apps in that there is a learning curve if you've never used it before. In my opinion, this learning curve isn't very steep though. As with any new app, ultimatelty your goal should be to become comfortable enough while working that you aren't thinking about which button to click or how to do something, rather how to create the artistic vision you have in mind.

Our goal here at DT isn't just to showcase what the app can do but also to teach you good workflows that will allow you to be successful on a variety of projects. Take for instance the process of creating selection groups. Is that totally necessary for every project? Absolutely not. Will it help for more complex projects that have a large number of tiles or objects. Absolutely. Especially when the selection you need is more advanced and takes a little bit of time to make. I agree with Jack in that, if desired you can be painting in Mari in just a few clicks. It's really all about what you as the artist need in terms of control, shortcuts, and efficiency. I'm curious about what other steps you might be referring to that I took before laying down any brush strokes. If you have any questions regarding any of these, I'd be happy to answer them.

Also, I agree with you that symmetry painting would be great, but I'm sure that The Foundry is also aware of the popularity of this request. Maybe Jack can attest to this. Of course there are ways to work around it because of the projection based workflow. The paint buffer is really easy to manipulate or flip before baking it onto another area of a model.

I would definitely encourage you to try out the Mari trial before making up your mind. In my opinion Mari is an amazing application and The Foundry, especially their support has been a pleasure to work with.

Hope this helps, make sure and update us on your thoughts after checking out the trial.

Eddie

PS- Great article Jack! It doesn't surprise me that Rhythm has moved over to Mari as it's primary paint tool.

[Strelok]

Thanks for the reply, Eddie!

It's been mostly your Mari videos I was watching; although I did check out others, I was very interested in the "Transforming Robot" painting section, and I also watched most of the Ogre course, as well as the ptex videos.

Now, I ought to say that although I don't actually have Mari, I was thinking about it, and I figured the best way to get a quick insight into it was through you guys' videos. Currently I use Mudbox, Photoshop and Painter for texturing, but Mari was suggested to me as something I might like.

So in other words, it seems I've misunderstood it somewhat, by not actually using it.

What I meant about detailed setup is one of those things. It seemed that you were going through a lot of preparation prior to painting, but I see your point now and why you did so, and it makes sense of course.

Anyway, soon as I can find some more time I intend on giving the trial a spin, and I'll definitely come back to this thread with any questions or further comments.

Thanks again for everybody's replies!

[Strelok]

Okay, I've had a chance to play around with the demo and I've watched Eddie's ogre course.

I have to say I was very wrong in my initial assumptions. Mari is waaayy beyond Mudbox in painting, that's for sure. Hard to get used to projection painting only, but I can see the usefulness of it now and it's worth the effort and learning curve.
I find the performance to be excellent even with my 2 GB GTX 560 and aging quad core, better than Mudbox performance, really.
It's one hell of a program, I have to say. The only thing that bothers me is the navigation seems a bit wonky at times, difficult sometimes to get the camera angle sorted out. I know about Ctrl+R from Eddie's course, but it's still kind of annoying.

But that's pretty small potatoes, really. I am putting Mari on my Christmas list.

[lourenco]

hey guys, arrived kinda late to the party, I've spend a week trying to figure out the whole Mari vs Mudbox question, and since I'm new to both programs ( but use zbrush extensively) I find that both programs have their weakness and strengths. Both of them are easy to use and understand, very logical interfaces.
I tried Mari first, and really liked it, it moves lots of data with ease, and it has fantastic and comprehensive masking and selecting tools. For me, the biggest drawback was the performance in the viewport with is subpar with maya or mudbox. Probably because of the card i have, an ATI firepro V8700, but i also tryed with a quadro 600 and it had the same performance (the ogre orbits in the viewport at 2 frames per second) the same model in maya with the quadro 600 orbits at 25fps, and with the ati well, above 100fps.

on the other and mudbox viewport perfomance is great, and it has layer masks, which i think is a big plus. also it can paint on posed (unsymmetrical models), and projects the textures a bit faster, in my opinion.

i don't know if it is because of the card, but Mari takes 5 seconds to bake a 4k texture in the ogre model. although i love the realtime interaction of the paint buffer, i wish it could project faster... but again that can be an issue with my system, beacuse I've seen impressive demos of mari's performance.

And please, fix the navigation, there is really no excuse for the camera to get skewed all the time (and I also know the ctrl+r)

For now, i will stick with mudbox, if only Mari didn't have performance issues on my pc... (i7 3820, oc'ed to 4.5ghz, 32gb of ram)