XSI or Cinema 4D R10...?

[3dtodd]

I'm debating on whether I should upgrade my Cinema 4D to release 10 or go with XSI 6.0; which is about to be released.

Maxon has dramatically improved the CA tools in R10, but since I have the XL bundle my upgrade to R10 will cost around $550. XSI is especially known for its CA abilities. I love Cinema 4D's ease of use, but my work in visual effects calls for a strong solution. Do I go for maintaining my experience with Cinema 4D, or will XSI fill my CA needs more appropriately?

Anyone have experiences, ideas, suggestions...?

[wizz]

maya :) ..............

[3dtodd]

Well, Maya would defeat the purpose of my query. The upgrade to R10 would cost me $550. XSI 6 would cost me around the same. Maya would cost me $2,000. El grande difference there, wizz.

[danlefeb]

Of course I'm not extremely experienced in either software - I've only played around with both and seen what people use them for in the industry so you can take what I say with a grain of salt, but I'd say it'd depend more on what you're using it for.... Cinema 4D is great for motion graphics and "light" 3D jobs, if you know what I mean. XSI is more robust and you have the opportunity to do more.

[brandeil]

XSI has def grown in popularity, in some cases better then Maya, but im still a Maya guy. :)

[3dtodd]

More robust. That is true, danlefeb. I've downloaded the demo of XSI. So, I'm gonna track down some CA tutorials for XSI and see what the experience is like. But, considering that for the same money I can get an entire program, XSI might just be my best bet.

Thanks everyone for your valuable input.

[jmesias]

OH COME ON!! why is this even an issue??!!! take a look at this:

http://www.digitaltutors.com/store/product.php?productid=1105&cat=32&page=1

CA from our pals at DT, you may want to check out the getting started with Xsi series also.

http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/dvds/asi04.html

it shows you how to build a sort of dino in Zbrush and bring it into Xsi and animate it, you said CA, not modeling

:p anyways, awesome tool, in a matter of minutes you already feel comfortable, not like in Maya ( sorry, but it's true). although I do agree that everyone has different needs and every package is not suited 4 everyone. you have to find what YOU are comfortable with. so here are the facts:

- Ilm used and uses Xsi (Jurassic Park for example).
- it's being used in many games and films for animation, modeling and effects, in fact dotXsi is a revolutionary way of working with games from within Xsi like non other before.

I haven't really used Cinema 4d for anything really, couldn't even get started, no tutors out there (when I was starting 3d).


robust? it's robust as heck!! full scripting support. Hands down my advice is Xsi. but download the demo and you'll realize if Xsi is or isn't for you.


I'm really looking forward to DT making more Xsi project tutors like the Photo realistic Car Modeling in Maya, which I started doing but realized Maya isn't for me. but fortunately we have Xsi.

Greets and you can contact me on jomesias@hotmail.com

[3dtodd]

Yea, I have XSI 5: The Official Guide from when I was looking into XSI before. Plus, I have the Intro to XSI 4.2 CD from DT as well. So, I'll have to play with the CA tools to see how they feel. From what I hear, it's like you said, jmesias. And again, they did use it for Jurrasic Park.

[mohd_moustady]

Hi,
I am exactly in your shoes

I approach the problem this way

C4D
Advantage
-fast
-easy
-great solution for hair
-xpresso makes scripting walk in the park
-Body paint 3d is with every r10 license

Disadvantages
-motion blur is very bad
-Dof is unrealistic
(buying finalrender stage 2.0 will solve these problems but will coast money)
-one big problem is that it can use bones for deformation only(very difficult when you want to do a special scenario rig)

XSI
Advantages
-fully integrated with compositing system and MentalRay engine
-fully customisable
-non distractive workflow(multiple construction history)
-reusability
-does not uses .MI files ,MentalRay is truly integrated in XSI (no need for ray.exe)

Disadvantages
-hair system is a pain
-little pit more complex

I hope this helps ;)
Beast of luke

[3dtodd]

Excellent points, mohd_moustady. I've decided to go with upgrading to Cinema 4D R10. I should be getting my copy on Monday or Tuesday.

What decided it for me came after I played with the demo of R10. Once again, Maxon has done a brilliant job of making the new character tools as user-friendly as humanly possible. While XSI and Maya have the "industry standard" edge going for them, Cinema 4D still wins hands down in the ease-of-use category. And in the end, that is the most important deciding factor for me. Why? Because TIME is money in the VFX world. Time is of the essence.

As an example:
Simply by doing a keyword search in the Object Manager of Cinema, you can quickly find any tag (i.e.Morph, Joint,etc.) should you need to make any changes and/or animate them. It's one of the reasons I got Cinema back at R8.5. Cinema 4D R10 is just as impressive as this app has ever been. I am extremely impressed by this new upgrade. Now, I am more excited about my character animation project for this film. Thanks to R10.

To be honest, I hope that R10 inspires Digital Tutors to create training videos for it. I would think R10's ease of use will make their creating the tutorials fun in and of itself. At least I'm hoping that's the case.

[mohd_moustady]

....... but my work in visual effects calls for a strong solution. Do I go for maintaining my experience with Cinema 4D, or will XSI fill my CA needs more appropriately?.......

Going for C4D is an excellent choice but you should considering the following

-As you have said “but my work in visual effects calls for a strong solution” you should look for alternative for C4D Advanced Render Because as I have said motion blur, and Dof is not the best solution for VFX

-Give a careful attention for C4D cloth sim cuz it is not the best for VFX

-If your are serious about VFX you should consider CD IK tools for C4D

regards

[3dtodd]

Cinema's cloth sim is actually quite good and should hold up well in VFX work. I don't see why it wouldn't. Speaking of Cactus Dan, I actually do have his latest version of CD IK Tools 1.4. So, I think I'm pretty well covered for character animation.

In regards to rendering, I also work in Modo 202; which by the way has the best renderer I've seen so far. It's extremely user friendly, and the default Global Illumination settings create some of the best damn renders I've seen out there.

And again, Cinema 4D is excellent at Multi-Pass rendering for which it can automatically create workspaces for After Effects and Combustion. I've used C4D multi-pass renders in Combustion, and C4D does an excellent job of creating a Combustion workspace that when opened in Combustion has all of the passes set at their proper blend mode and the camera in its proper location. I've used Cinema 4D for CG effects in the movie "Hoot" to the complete satisfaction of the VFX supervisor. Who, as a matter of fact, has since picked up a copy of Cinema 4D himself. He's been in the biz for over 15 years. So, I'd say I'm in pretty good shape.

[mohd_moustady]

I dont get it?
- How do you use modo for CA in a production pipeline?
- And if you are to produce some realistic results how do u compare C4D with syflex for example?
- What do u use for motion blur (post production)?
-DOF depth maps?

- and finally do u work solo or in a team?cuz XSI work best on a team

answering these questions might help :)

[3dtodd]

I dont get it?
- How do you use modo for CA in a production pipeline?
- And if you are to produce some realistic results how do u compare C4D with syflex for example?
- What do u use for motion blur (post production)?
-DOF depth maps?

- and finally do u work solo or in a team?cuz XSI work best on a team

answering these questions might help :)

"How do you use modo for CA in a production pipeline?"

Seriously, Modo has been used in many recent productions by Embassy FX and Massive Entertainment just to name a few. It's been heralded as one of the best modelers around. It was used for 90% of "Ant Bully" just as a recent example. I guarantee you Modo will be part of most production pipelines in the near future. If you've ever tried it, you would know why I think this.

I haven't seen anything that Cinema's cloth engine produces that wouldn't be accepted as production quality. Like most tools, its the user who's responsible for the end result. And Cinema's cloth engine is just as capable of anything I've seen.

Cinema definitely needs work in the DOF area. Although I anticipate that will be taken care of in upcoming 10.1/10.5 updates. Since its clear Maxon focused on CA tools for R10. Which for my current CA project works out quite nicely.

Honestly, Cinema 4D has held up quite well to production standards in the times I've used it. Cinema 4D was used for all of the environments in "Polar Express", and it proved itself quite well there. I think if more FX houses really put Cinema to the test, it just may surprise them. Until they do, I won't expect anyone to admit to its integrity.

As far as Modo goes, I don't think you're really paying attention. It's barely two years old and its made its way into the production pipeline of many FX and game houses. But, like Cinema, until more people actually try Modo - except for those who already have - they'll never know of its true power and flexibility.

[mohd_moustady]

I am sorry I have mislead you.
when I asked you about modo in CA I meant it Renderer in CA.
no doubt about modo capabilities in modelling.

as for c4d cloth sim I have tried it, it is good but the power to produce exceptional results was made by syflex. can u use it for a digital double for example?

If C4D solves the DOF and motion bur problems (new release of AR maybe), then without a doubt C4D is gona be my choice

[3dtodd]

At the moment, Modo does not have CA tools. I'm betting that will come next year with v301. Right now, you can model and texture in Modo and export it in FBX, and any other 3D app can open it with the textures. As a matter of fact, with the Mac version of Modo the FBX file will also import the lights as well. For some reason, on the PC side it doesn't bring in the lights it just create nulls; which you can of course replace with lights as these nulls do retain the coordinates that came from Modo.

If Modo's CA tools turn out as powerful and user-friendly as their current toolset of modeling, texturing and rendering there's a very good chance I'll go completely Modo at that point. Until then, I'm happy working with both Modo and Cinema.

About Cinema's cloth tools, I still haven't seen any situation where Cinema hasn't been able to meet my needs. I think in the right hands, Clothilde can do quite well for itself. When the time comes I am called to do some cloth sim work, I will try Cinema first. If I don't get the results I need, then I'll gladly seek out another resource.

[mohd_moustady]

couldn't have said it better

[IsleofGough]

As a user of C4D R10 with all modules and XSI Advanced 5.11, I would say C4D has only about 75% of the features of XSI but is 500% easier to use. For a quick model, C4D is great. What it lacks are good subsurface polygon modeling tools (no extrude along a spline - a plugin is available but is very limited, lathe works only as a nurb and around y axis, sweep works only as a nurb, etc.). What this means is that although one can do a lot of typical modeling with extruding, lathing, etc., one must convert these to polygons and then parent to a hypernurb. This is a one way procedure, so one cannot then go back and tweak the original splines the way one could in XSI. However, C4D has a better hair module, a cool MOGRAPH module, better options for integration with Adobe After Effects, and a bigger assortment of plugins for interaction with other programs.

[3dtodd]

Well said, IsleofGough. I've been looking at the new features (and current ones) of XSI 6. XSI is becoming an even more impressive app with each new version. V6 is quite impressive on the new features alone. If I ever find the time to explore another app - besides Modo and C4D - it will probably be XSI.

But, now with the cool new CA tools of R10, I am very excited about finally exploring character animation on my own. R10 is Maxon's most popular and biggest selling version to date. I can see why. Given this situation, I hope Digital Tutors finally takes the steps to adding Cinema 4D to its training CD roster.

Whatdya say, DT?