Fishing for Monsters: Pre-Production

[stwert]

As we've decided on the topic to be "Fishing for a ginormous sea monster", now's the time to start sketching out ideas. If you haven't yet, check out the README (http://www.digitaltutors.com/forum/showthread.php?21771-Community-Project-README) first!

I've divided this part of pre-production into three types of sketches/designs.

1) Layout Sketches: Sketch the overall scene, capturing the emotion or story (e.g. is the fisherman trying to catch a normal fish and hooked a monster by mistake? Is he/she hunting for an arch-nemesis? Comedic? Thrilling?)

2) Character Design: This will really help the character modellers (and maybe texturers)
a) Monster(s)
b) Fisherman/woman (more than one?)

3) Environment Sketches: Where is this? What scenic elements will be needed? Props?

We can have multiple people doing each type of sketch, and vote on the results; the more designs the better. Do some sketches (I may do a couple myself :)) and upload them in this thread. Even if you're "no good at drawing" grab a pencil or tablet and give it a whirl, you might surprise yourself. I'll set a tentative deadline of Sunday evening (this sounds like a good weekend project).

Feel free to toss around more ideas about this scene too in this thread. Let the creative juices flow!

[danlefeb]

I can't help but ask.....Don't you think you should compile a list of everything you need in the scene before you start randomly sketching things? :) I mean, how many different characters are you going to have? To make it believable you generally want a character backstory. Somewhere I have a character profile questionnaire that I used to perform on any characters I'd do. Lately that has been slim to none so I'll have to try and dig it up if anyone's interested. But I think before you jump to concept art you need to determine exactly what and how many things you're drawing. Just my thoughts....

[stwert]

I guess I'm thinking of the flip side of the coin. How will we know what's supposed to be in the scene if we don't do some concept sketches first? Some backstory would be great, which I think should develop alongside the initial ideas. Is this in a lake? A river? What kind of boat is the fisherman in? Is the monster interrupted during a meal of fish (or a scuba diver)? That's the sort of thing that will come out through the sketching process, I think. I can't make a list and then say, okay, draw something that includes these, and only these, pieces. Maybe someone will draw a scene and then think, hey, another smaller monster would be so cool right about here.

True, the character design and props/environment design should come after the story/main idea has been sketched out, but we know there will be a fisherman and we know there will be a monster for starters, so people can start coming up with backstories and designs for those.

I guess it's just two different ways of getting to the same goal. Obviously in bigger productions, these things take on several iterations and go back and forth before anything final is decided. It's really good to hear your thoughts on this. I'm hoping that this pre-production will be a very "organic" process, which is an over-used word, which here I mean: stuff will happen in whatever order members get ideas and do things, and at the end, maybe some collaborative nugget of art will fall out the bottom.

[danlefeb]

You make some good points stwert...our minds just find different paths to the same end. :)

[atomic]

I can't draw and certainly not with a mouse :p, but I thought I just sketch out my idea of the scene (for now).
And hopefully others will follow with their version, so we get all that creative input to create a nice scene.

http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/7293/dtcommunityfishing.jpg

I also thought about adding an abandoned old wooden outhouse, which is used every now and then by the local fisherman. But I didn't had any room left for it. :p

grtz :)

[stwert]

Very cool Atomic! Nice foreboding Jaws-ish feeling to it.

[atomic]

hehe thx :p But I was just thinking how would we make this work in 3D. As we are going to make a single shot, it should be stuffed with the entire story and I don't know if we can do that with this approach. But hey, maybe this sparks an idea with someone else.. :)

EDIT: Maybe I'll visualize an other idea I have today...

[stwert]

In my head, which I should really put on paper, I see the scene as the fisherman hooking the monster, and it just breaking the surface of the water, terrifying the fisherman who is on the verge of falling backwards out of his boat. I'll try to sketch it out this weekend.

[atomic]

Yea my other idea has the monster a bit more glorieus in the shot :p

[bianconero90]

If I would do a still image than I would start sketching the idea first and than once I have roughly what I want, I would start the real concept design. Why spending so much time with modeling, texturing etc. if the concept is not worth it?

If I would do a short-film than I would do it like "danlefeb" method.

[atomic]

This was my other idea:
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/586/dtcommunityfishing2.jpg

With the monster fish looking very mean/aggresive and powerfull and the character fallen of it's feet from the scare.

[purplemikey]

well... what could be nice is that the fisherman think he got something easy to catch but finaly its just that the monster is going toward him...
and he break his line just before getting it out of the water... and then he boat start shaking like if there were a big wave... but the water is still calm...
and then you see the tentacles getting out of the water and take the ship down into the water...
and the camera go back and you see a poster or something at the border of the lake with an advertissement "no fishing"
and then you see an other guy fishing on the lake with some text... like few days later... and he feel something on his line and the screen goes black and you write "the end"

thats the idea I had when I saw that title hope you like it.

[Dean]

Its a single shot for now mikey, not an animation as far as i know.

[Xpandemic]

Hey guys, I have a scene in my head for this project but right now I've only sketched the guys head. (its still a wip)

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/5875/fishermani.jpg
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/2884/pencilsketch.jpg

[atomic]

Cool head Xpandemic, keep 'm comming :)

[purplemikey]

oh sorry i tought it was a short well good luck guys

[stwert]

Well here's my layout/story sketch. Don't know if the scan is any good, but hopefully you get the idea. I think there's a lot more that members can post, so we'll keep this sketching stage open for a while longer.http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/5576/fishingformonsterslayou.jpg

[atomic]

Very nice monster fish stwert. :)
I was also thinking of perhaps an underwater shot.

[stwert]

Thanks atomic. The really tricky part I guess would be getting the light refraction (?) and caustics working so that looking through the surface would result in the distortion you'd expect. Any rendering genius know how to approach that? Maybe someone can volunteer for that stage if we end up doing an underwater shot.

[Fusedgore]

You can always plug a caustic pattern into lights or generate caustics with materials .That fish reminds me of a dinosaur I saw somewhere but cant remember what it was called .This looks like a solid idea.If you guys want I can model this real quick for ya .Then someone or I can sculpt it to .Thats if this is what your looking for .


http://www.zmescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/080229101002.jpg

[stwert]

Thanks for the offer Fusedgore. We'll wait until we make a final decision on what the monster will actually look like. Mine was just one idea out of several.
@Bravo: Good idea, it might be cool to do a few different shots and then string them together like a comic book style.

[kcarp]

Random Thought -- It's the community's if we want all or any part.

A Green Peace type organization can have made a device that makes a hologram of a frightening giant sea creature to discourage fishing in a certain area of the Bermuda Triangle. Pictures of the monster have shown up that were taken by small fishing boats but not from ships that would have sonar for detecting actual fish. A crew from a TV show with a name like "Science Quest" goes to investigate. The TV crew hits a storm and sinks leaving the crew in a wooden life boat. The hologram machine is also lost in the same storm and is floating near the TV crews' boat. They spend a day at sea seemingly going to be swamped or eaten by the ginormous fish before they are rescued. They and produce the episode which airs on TV seeming to prove the existence of the monster fish.

Regards,
Ken

[Dean]

im in, please share some info about how to help out. If you want me to ofcourse

[stwert]

Absolutely, great to have you on the team Dean! PM me your email and I'll add you to the GQueues task list. And if you like, sketch up a couple concepts so we can have some designs to work off. Once we nail down the design, we can all start signing up for things to model and texture.

[Dean]

i would love to help out with the scetchs but i cant, cause i dont have a pen tablet, and if i do em by hand i dont have a scaner, so i gues il help you guys out with the other stuff.

[stwert]

Just a reminder for people to keep posting concept work... it'd be great to have a few more participants put even a rough sketch together. Again, you don't have to be good at drawing, or even have fancy equipment. You could even just take a photograph of a pencil drawing.

Another thing we'll need to decide is the style we want. Is this going to be a realistic image? Or slightly cartoony? Or very stylized? What do you guys think?

[Dean]

im thinking bout tim burton's movie style, but il leave all that up to you.

[atomic]

I'm feeling like this thread is grinding to a halt, pls people all help is welcome.
As for the monster I like stwert his sketch and I think we should go for a monster like that.
And I also think an underwater shot would be a good idea. cuz this won't involve very much environment modeling and still look good.

[stwert]

Alright, since this thread seems to be winding down to the ground, we're going to have to move on, despite the relative lack of concept material. I hope that the modellers will take some time to gather reference material for their respective elements.

I had a brief chat with Atomic and I've decided that we'll go with the sketch that I did for the overall story/shot. Since the above water environment and fisherman are relatively obscure in my sketch, we'll use Atomic's aerial shot as an environmental reference. And we can try to incorporate some of Xpandemic's fisherman head if possible, though maybe to keep the look consistent, we might have to forgo that.

Thanks for those that participated in this, I'll update the other threads shortly.

[danlefeb]

Alright, since this thread seems to be winding down to the ground, we're going to have to move on, despite the relative lack of concept material.

I'm sure you all must think I play the devil's advocate all the time, but might I suggest that a reason why there may not be that much concept material is that the story wasn't created first? Jumping to concept material before writing a script is a bit premature isn't it? So when told to create "concept art", most people probably have no idea what sort of concepts to base their art off of...take a look at the brief overview of a production pipeline (http://www.digitaltutors.com/forum/showthread.php?p=69272#post69272) and you'll see there are a few steps before any sort of art comes into play. If it were me, I'd probably put concept art right there with pre-visualization. Although some of it could be done prior to or alongside of storyboards.

[atomic]

I think the story can also be brought out through concept art. And because the story (as far as there is much story for a still) wasn't layed down yet, people could give their ideas about the project. But anyway I think it is a good idea to do Stwert's sketch. :)

[stwert]

Yeah, I appreciate your comment danlefeb, and that's a good point. However, as we're just doing a still image, there's no storyboarding to be done, per se. The single image should capture the story in itself, which is what I was hoping people would do. I realize it's still a bit open ended, but I was hoping others would be able to go off "A fisherman/woman who has an encounter with a sea monster" and get some creative juices going. I didn't want to dictate the emotion/story by saying something so specific as "A lonely fisherman is spending a quiet day on a mountain lake, when he is startled by a huge dragon-like monster rushing up from the deep to snatch his proffered worm and overturn the terrified fisher in his boat."

Not sure if I'm making sense here, but I wonder what other people do when creating a still image... what do they start with? Probably some character study, I presume, which might have helped this pre-production. There's still time for that, if people want to offer some character background stories, as you've described in your blog post.

[danlefeb]

Even a still image -- if meant to be believable -- have backstory.

[DjVoyager]

Not sure if I'm making sense here, but I wonder what other people do when creating a still image... what do they start with? Probably some character study, I presume, which might have helped this pre-production. There's still time for that, if people want to offer some character background stories, as you've described in your blog post.

Dan's right. The best way to start off any visual production is by creating thumbnails or storyboards in case of animation. Thumbnails are small sketches that define your scene's setup. You don't have to put a lot of detail in it, matter of fact using stick figures is a better idea, anything to give your teammates a concept of the bigger picture.

Start off by having all team members create one or two thumbnails each. Vote to select the best one. Afterward, a member can take the selected thumbnail, scale it up and start adding small detail to it. This is when it is decided whether the character should be a man or woman, old or young etc. you get the idea. The specifics of the monster can also be added now. Again, you don't need any colors or environment at this point, just concentrate on the camera angle and the characters' description.

After the characters are defined you can move into setting up the environment and color scheme. Once again, nothing fancy, just something to give everyone an idea of what the end result would be like.

Now here's the optional part. If you have a good traditional artist on your team have him or her create a rendition of the CG project before you dive into developing it in 3D. This will save time come production time, but if you don't have a traditional artist then move directly to production.

Hope this helps :).

[Yeoman742]

ok, I've been kind of staying out of this thread because like Dan and DJ have stated there's not much of a story right now and I have to agree.. So with that being said, I'm going to post the start of a story I've just come up with but not finished.. Don't have an ending, so I don't know where its going.. You guys can make any changes you wish to it, it might help with your designing or creativity..

Old man opens door from lighthouse and walks down to his boat.
Gets in boat (named ORCA) and pilots out toward sunrise.
Boat shuts down (noting no shore line) and old man sits in back of boat with fishing pole in hand.
We see the fishing bobber on the water get tugged under once, followed by a pause and three more times.
Old man gets excited and peers over edge.
(Top view of boat and area) We see a LARGE dark shadow swim beside, then under the boat.
(could do some humor with monster’s head popping in and out of water every time old man looks)
Then sees a large wave (kind of like you see from Godzilla 1995), old man looks at fishing pole, then wave, throws down pole and starts the boat engine.
Tries to outrun wave, but unsuccessful.


Thats it for right now.. Anyone want to add something go right ahead

[DjVoyager]

The boat's name is Orca? Even though I'm not part of this group project I will have to suggest this:

When the old man sees the dark shadow looming underneath he goes, "Dang, I'm gonna need a bigger boat!"

lol!

[DjVoyager]

For those of you who couldn't catch that "bigger boat" reference, here's the clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gciFoEbOA8&feature=related


Their boat is called the Orca. :)

[bianconero90]

I don't think that I'm the only one that don't have a story, when I start doing a still image.

I think the most important thing is the concept IMO. If this not works than nothing will work.

I would start sketching pretty rough the scene (camera view) and than once I have what I want, I start doing concept art for the characters and the environment.

[Yeoman742]

That was what I was referring with the name.. That actually might be a GREAT tag line.. "Monster Fishing: I'm gonna need a bigger boat!!"

[danlefeb]

I don't think that I'm the only one that don't have a story, when I start doing a still image.

No, you're not the only one. In fact there are tons of full-length feature films out there where the storyline is a byproduct. Instead the movie is sold on being visually pleasing. But which movies end up being better? The ones that are simply visually pleasing or those that are visually pleasing and tell a good story? The same goes for a still image. You can create a very good visually pleasing image with no story. But the best still images are visually pleasing and tell a story.

[stwert]

Very true danlefeb. I still feel like we're getting confused here on what we mean by story.

With a still image (we're not doing an animation or any series of frames at this point, in case anyone still doesn't understand this) story is very important. When I see an image, it's pretty easy to see whether there's a story attached or not. For example, I made this still image a short while ago (http://biocinematics.blogspot.com/2010/06/stagefright.html) and I was trying very hard to attach some sense of story behind it. Whether I was successful or not is up to the viewer of course.

Now, when I think of a story behind an image, I attack it from the point of view of the still image (i.e. what elements in this image tell the story). That's when I start sketching, because the relationship between the elements is what really sells the story in my opinion. Not necessarily what happened five minutes before, or how someone got to a specific point. Do we need to know where the fisherman lives or how he got on the lake? I don't know... what I feel are important are how the monster and the fisherman are reacting to each other, and maybe you can get a glimpse of the motives behind each of them. That's the story for me.

I like this discussion and would be happy to have it continue. The main thing is to learn, and as there aren't too many sketches getting posted right now, this thread can be spent discussing how a story relates to an image and how to get to that point.

EDIT: In my head, it's really chicken and egg... Does the story define the concept sketch or does the concept sketch define the story?? Well, both I guess. IMHO you can take it from either direction.

But for those that feel they need a story before they can start sketching, let's hear some written ideas! NOT animation sequences, again, but backstories and character study, motive, emotion all that. I'm not the one to dictate what the story will be.

[danlefeb]

Do we need to know where the fisherman lives or how he got on the lake?

In my opinion the answer is simple: Yes. Where the fisherman lives and how he got to the lake can help determine things like what his appearance is. For example, does he have a disheveled appearance or is he neat/clean? Did he shave this morning or does he have stubble growing because his business is failing and he's been working around the clock to save it?


...what I feel are important are how the monster and the fisherman are reacting to each other, and maybe you can get a glimpse of the motives behind each of them. That's the story for me.

The backstory for each of these characters will determine how they will react to the situation you put them in by meeting each other.


EDIT: In my head, it's really chicken and egg... Does the story define the concept sketch or does the concept sketch define the story??

Imagine you're taking a real photograph of this scene. You're stepping outside on a beautiful day to take some photographs of nothing in particular when you see your friend, the fisherman, hard at work on the lake. All of a sudden a monster jumps out of the lake and you bring the camera up to take a picture of this Kodak moment!

Now freeze.

What came first? The concept idea for this photograph or the story that led these two characters to meet each other? Did you determine what the fisherman will look like and how he'll react or did his backstory determine that? What will determine the reaction between the two characters?

Let's go back and assume this photograph is staged instead of a surprise.

This time you step outside on a beautiful day to take some photographs of your friend the fisherman and your other friend who apparently is some sort of monster. You already have in your mind something similar to what you want, so you try to line that up as close as possible in the camera's eye and take a round of snapshots.

What came first? The concept idea of how the photograph will look or the story that determine how these two characters will appear in your photograph? And in this case what will determine how these two characters react to each other in the camera's eye? If the image is staged this brings up yet another interesting question: is your second friend actually a monster or is he just dressing up like a monster to help create some sort of hoax?

Those are just a couple examples and I don't want to take over your project; you are always free to do whatever you'd like. But in my mind it's always clear what comes first. I can't think of a single time I've taken a photograph of any subjects that didn't exist before my idea to take that photograph. As such their back story will always play a part, if even a subtle one, in their appearance and reactions in that photograph. I realize this isn't a photograph, but you're trying to create an image that assumes these characters have lived for a lot longer than this one frame in time. That's just my two cents. I'll shut up if you want now. :)

[Yeoman742]

ok. Here is a little information on the background of the fisherman and monster. Please add or change anything your creative minds can come up with..

Fisherman: Old man, has been a fisherman his whole life, nothing else matters but the catch.. Always looking for the biggest catch. Enjoys the solitute of his home and his boat when fishing. He's been through all the sea gods can throw at him. Looks something between Captain Phil Harris (from Deadliest Catch) and The Gordon Fisherman.. Has beard and mustach, wears oversized rain coat and rubber overalls. Few healed cuts on face and arms from many battles with fish.

Monster: Young but very big.. agile in the water, but clumsy when on dry land. Likes to play with food before eating. Hasn't experienced much in life and has been restricted to a specific area of the ocean due to food supply. Never seen a human before knows to stay away from boats due to their propellers. (I'm leaving the look open to those with bigger imaginations).

[stwert]

Danlefeb: Again, some very good points you've made. I'm not going to tell you to shut up ;). I still disagree somewhat with your photography analogy, because in any fabricated story, the story doesn't really exist until you tell it to, which could be at the same time as you're drawing out ideas. In fact you might be doodling on a scrap of paper, which causes inspiration about some part of the fisherman's backstory. That's what I meant by chicken and egg, which is different than a real world story as you've outlined. But I do agree that it can be very helpful to write out some ideas on the story and backstory, as Yeoman has done.

Yeoman: Good ideas with these characters. One thing that I feel when I read these descriptions is that the fisherman really has the upper hand here, more experience and is ready for anything, whereas the monster is a bit more unassuming and inexperienced. This could lead to a really interesting story/image. I see it a bit differently in my head, so I'll offer that as a suggestion.

The fisherman is a quiet humble man who likes the solitude and relaxation of fishing after a long tiring week at the office. He doesn't really care if he catches anything or not, he's just there to be there. The monster is a stealthy sleek beast, unsympathetic, simply a creature satisfying the instinctive need to feed. He has a difficult time in the lake finding food, so even a small morsel such as a worm is welcome fodder. Little does he know that there is a bigger treat on the other end of the line.

[atomic]

you all good ideas here, but I have to say my idea of the story leans strongly against stwert's outline.

[danlefeb]

I still disagree somewhat with your photography analogy, because in any fabricated story, the story doesn't really exist until you tell it to, which could be at the same time as you're drawing out ideas.

Keep in mind that this isn't a solo project. What you're talking about is perfectly fine if you're working alone. As implied before (http://www.digitaltutors.com/forum/showthread.php?21797-Fishing-for-Monsters-Pre-Production&p=73603#post73603) there are many different ways to approach a project. A lot of people may disagree with me but I'll go out on a limb here and say that technically there is no wrong way, per se, to achieve an end result in CG. It is the end result that matters. There are, however, preferred methods to achieve a result and to help ensure an end result is even attainable. So why did I mention story first as a preferred method? Simply put: concept art can take a lot of time. Because creating concept art first exponentially consumes time when each member of a group project draws out each iteration of their concepts of the story rather than just discuss story ideas and ensuring everyone is on the same page before concept art begins. The same is the reason for sketching out a design idea before jumping into 3D right away. Many online collaborative projects flounder because its members lose interest after the project stagnates. So in this case saving time could mean saving the project.


I see it a bit differently in my head, so I'll offer that as a suggestion.

And this proves my point. How much more time would this have taken if you guys had drawn out each concept instead of just talking about it to get on the same page first? :)

[stwert]

Many online collaborative projects flounder because its members lose interest after the project stagnates. So in this case saving time could mean saving the project.

I'm very aware of this, which is why I maybe erroneously decided to keep the pre-production to a minimum by doing all of it at once. I thought that the topic that we voted on would be enough of a background for people to share some ideas, both in words and with sketches. I realize full well the importance of pre-production, which is why we're doing it, but I don't want to turn this into a year-long project either :P.

Now maybe I'm wrong on this, but I feel like few people (not talking industry here, just people learning) actually take the time to do any pre-production work, besides maybe grabbing a few ref shots from the web. This is not to slight those that do this (sometimes you just gotta get started modelling). So with that in mind, I want to let people get started ASAP without this thing getting bogged down in pre-production, with at least a concept, if not a fully fleshed out backstory.

I may be wrong on this too (please prove me wrong) but I have a feeling we're not going to get a flood of sketches even if we do nail down a great story. Maybe it's that the July competition isn't over yet; I know I'm focusing on that right now.

So here's what I think: I've posted atomic and my sketches as concept/references so far. People can feel free to sign up for tasks, I'll post a WIP thread shortly for when modelling gets started. This is so the project doesn't get bogged down and those that won't participate in story ideas/concept art can still get started. I'd love to have more story ideas and details (like danlefeb is suggesting), and even more concept art, which will serve to flesh out and detail the existing concepts. It's fair to say that the concepts so far leave much to the imagination, so creating a new story won't necessarily mean axing what people have started working on (I hope).

Again, this is a learning experience for us all, so it'll be great to see what works and doesn't in this process.

[DigitalSprocket]

I don't want to sound like I'm sittin' on the fence here but I agree with both ways of creating art. There is no wrong way to creativity except for the lack there of it (A bit Yoda, I know, but it's true). Another scenario: because the medium is so vast, sometimes a story has been created but the process of creating/drawing can take you in a completely different direction. Hence, even though originally the art was story driven it was the art and the process of drawing that brought us to the final project. I believe in all three processes (mine included) mentioned here and I work in all three ways. How each of us has grown up, the experiences we have had and a countless number of other things all lead up to how we create and perceive. That's what is so awesome about art in any form.

Case in point, I perceived the project in two completely different ways before I read up on this blog. One is similar to stwert's and atomic's idea and the other nowhere near a lake. Both of my sketches were done before story as the idea sparked, but as I got the initial lines down my sketches changed as the story began to develop in my head.


http://bradyoo.com/extras/dt/fishingformonsters/fishing_sketch.jpg


A humanoid fish take on "who's fish for who?"

http://www.bradyoo.com/extras/dt/fishingformonsters/squid_sketch.jpg


The colossal squid is based on the old fishermans lore of monsters at sea.


One thing I find interesting is all of our takes on the "Monster" is completely different as well. One is the fish that got away (atomic), the next a take on the Loch Ness (stwert), then I come along with a humorous twist and a somber tale of a monster of the sea.

[DjVoyager]

DigitalSprocket: Awesome sketching! :bang

[stwert]

Sweet stuff! I especially like the first one, could there be a scuba diver under the surface maybe?

[DigitalSprocket]

HA! I love it! Now that is a killer story. I can see it now, there is a crew of Swiss scientists, entrepreneurs and rich people searching the underbellies of the lake to find the lost monster of Lake Credere! Every attempt to find the mythical creature thus far has been unsuccessful but they still dive. All the while, the monster is hiding in plain site, ignored, mistaken, as a local commoner.

DjVoyager - Thanks :^D=

[DjVoyager]

@DigitalSprocket: One of locals upon discovering the monster: "We thought it was just a slimy dog!"

[stwert]

Just a reminder that as we continue to develop the story, feel free to sign up for and get started modelling some of the elements that we know will be in the scene (scenery, fish, fishing rod etc.) And the fisherman and monster will be in the scene, but we can always decide to arrange and pose them differently, or change things like clothing etc.

Edit: Or is the lack of a final decision here preventing people from getting started?? Cause in that case we can make an absolute set-in-stone no switching type of decision if people would prefer that.

[Dean]

Edit: Or is the lack of a final decision here preventing people from getting started?? Cause in that case we can make an absolute set-in-stone no switching type of decision if people would prefer that.

Thats the only way to get things done IMO, cause there are diferent styles diferent assets, it all needs to be one style for the scene to look good, if your making a monster fish as a fisherman or making a human fisherman or whatever, people need to know what they are modeling and that the time included in the model will be put in use, not just model stuff that may end up unused.

[Fusedgore]

Just let me know once u guys have your models done .I can help rig them for ya .Contact me on msn or here by pm .I would hlpe model but I am busy doing my reel and other stuff .Though I am willing to rig .

[atomic]

very nice sketches DigitalSprocket, I like the idea of a 75 meter high squid coming out of an 8 meter deep pond. :D
I mean how unexpected is that?! :p


One thing I find interesting is all of our takes on the "Monster" is completely different as well. One is the fish that got away (atomic), the next a take on the Loch Ness (stwert), then I come along with a humorous twist and a somber tale of a monster of the sea.

And yea thats something I think is another fun part of working with other artists. :)

[DigitalSprocket]

I think we should hold off on any modeling content that is not in the approval stage of the process (rocks and trees and set dressing excluded). As Dean mentioned, there is the potential of a lot of wasted modeling if we just jump into it without a solid scene. I think we should come to a point of where enough sketching/ideas are produced and then, you as head, either make a decision or open it up to a vote (although I have seen this outcome turn a project into a disaster). Too much freedom can lead to people getting their feelings invested and lead to hurt feelings , then dropping out.
How I see it stwert is you're the head of the project so all finals need to be approved by you. In the preproduction stage a lot of liberty should be given to aid in the creative process but once we get to production, content needs to be set in stone. It'd be like working for Christopher Columbus: without the direction we could end up somewhere really cool... but we could drown too. If we have a solid destination then we have a tangible goal. Just my thoughts.

[stwert]

Thanks for the comments DigitalSprocket. I'm feeling quite torn/stuck at this point as project head, because a) I really want to get this project into the actual modelling phase before it dies b) I don't want to minimize or ignore people's efforts in this phase c) I don't feel super comfortable just picking a concept (especially since I have a concept as well) d) I agree that voting can be problematic too...

Another problem is that we don't exactly have complete concepts yet... we have a few overall shot/scenario sketches, but no complete character designs for both monster and fisherman.
Then again, as I look at your sketches, which I really like, is the issue of style. I sort of decided that we should stick with a realistic style in order for everyone to understand what that is. A cartoony style could work, but it might be sort of disjointed too as different people interpret it differently.
So yeah... if we could get two solid character designs in a roughly realistic style, I would be so relieved and we could just get going I think. Otherwise I think we'll have to put the existing concepts to a vote, see what the outcome is, and go from there...

[DigitalSprocket]

I can understand your torn position, if the project sits too long it has the greater chance of dying off, especially since we have a fairly small crew. I think your moving in the right direction with getting atomic started on props and scenery details. I did want to brush up on the style of the project and mention that we can bake our cake and eat it too (wow, that quote is sure getting old). I fully agree, a cartoony would be hard to get everyone on the same page. I think we could create a style that has character in the design but be treated realistically. What I'm trying to get at here is that doing a scene that is purely realistic gives us little room for error. Reality is so hard to nail correctly because we all see it every day. I think we can produce stylistic characters that would still represent "real". It would basically come down to how we handle our texture and rendering process. Below are some examples I quickly found.

These better represent character:
http://bradyoo.com/extras/dt/fishingformonsters/ref/jcLeyendecker_thanks.jpghttp://bradyoo.com/extras/dt/fishingformonsters/ref/Leyendecker_hobo.jpg
http://bradyoo.com/extras/dt/fishingformonsters/ref/team_fortress_2_group.jpg

This is all about cartoon:
http://bradyoo.com/extras/dt/fishingformonsters/ref/davy_8.jpg

All food for thought.

[purplemikey]

I have to admit that the last one is pretty funny
I would go with something cartoon like team fortress... could be really interesting... or maybe like disneys movies

[stwert]

Some good thoughts on the style. The tricky part the way I see it is that yes, it would work to have a style as long as it was very clearly defined and displayed in images for all to reproduce. However, with a fairly low input of drawings at this stage of the game, the chances of having 4 or more (which I think would be necessary) sketches all following the same style showing: overall scene, fisherman character, monster character, misc elements, environment etc. are relatively slim unless one person tackled it all. These would need to be clear enough for someone to model quite closely off of.

However, I'm willing to eat my words if you, DigitalSprocket, or someone else would be willing to tackle this. Then I think we could confidently move forward off the set of images. Does that make any sense?

[Devere]

well i'm gonna get started on concepting just wanted a cohesive direction for us all to go in. in general and even otherwise I find it allot easier to work with a design brief, or in this case story and character description sorted out makes the whole design process flow allot more smoothly. Though I don't have film experience per seh I have had experience from my internships and 4 years of over 30 group design projects doing my industrial design degree, Have formed my opinion that it's best to work everything out on paper make sure everyone if on the same page before putting line on paper. From first group project I did designing a bus shelter, my team members and myself had designed everything out in plan view. did all the drafting, colors, materials and what not, and this allowed us to work on our parts separately and have cohesive end result. He build the prototype and I worked on presentation boards and perspective drawings and marker renderings. I was proud to say non could ever be wiser to figure out that we worked on them separately. cause the scale model, (was made out of acrylic and mdf.) looked exactly like the perspective renderings.

not luck it was all planning and executing as a team, so though its nice to work your way stwert some times (enjoyed it on solo projects) a more planned and structured design method more often then not produces better results in my experience at least.

[DigitalSprocket]

stwert: yeah I get ya. Whatever way you decide to go I'm sure we can make this work. Determination is the name of the game! ;)

I had some time to draw today, so here we are. I'm too tired to be a creative typer tonight :rolleyes:. I think I'm going to start on Fisherman designs next, he should be easier to nail down and get modeling. Tell me what you think. I know we're not going cartoony but I had to do some fish fishing revamping for fun.


http://bradyoo.com/extras/dt/fishingformonsters/monster_fishing01.jpg

[Devere]

DigitalSprocket

I think you posted in the wtong area, designs looking great though gonna sketch up some of the fishermen today

[Devere]

on the larger fish monster I think a smaller head might be better to help emphasis the scale of it's body and make it look much moe giganturan

[stwert]

DigitalSprocket: Some very cool designs, great job!
Devere: No, this is the right area, this is the thread for all pre-production work, including concept design, sketches, stories etc.
Looking forward to seeing both your fisherman designs!

[stwert]

I've decided to set a firm deadline of Saturday evening for all this pre-production work. In order to keep this project moving, I'm going to make some "executive" decisions on story and process, and we'll have one last shot at finishing up some character designs.

So based on several of the sketches and story designs so far, I'll lay out the background and "story":

The setting is a lake, surrounded by woods, with mountains further in the distance. A warm sunny day presents a solitary fisherman in a small wooden boat. He's a fisherman by hobby, not trade, but he's not new to fishing; there's plenty of experience under his belt. Little does he suspect there's a behemoth beneath the relatively calm surface as he casts out his line. Maybe the monster is looking for a human meal, maybe it just doesn't like to be bothered by fishing lines, but either way, it's not happy and it's on course for a major encounter.

I hope this is a concrete enough story that we're all on the same page now. I present it as such because most of the concepts/stories discussed and drawn thus far (and atomic's fantastic boat WIP) fit relatively well with it. Please submit sketches on or before Saturday, with emphasis on fisherman designs (we don't really have any yet). We'll stick with the "realistic" style. If I think there are enough different designs, we'll put them to one or more votes, otherwise I'll select the final reference drawings and we'll (continue to) get started!

I do apologize for not being the best project manager and leading us around in circles for a bit. I hope we can continue forward, and I'll try to learn from my mistakes.

[atomic]

That is absolutly what I had in mind as well stwert. Maybe to add, I imagined the fisherman as an older calm man.
And I think you are doing pretty wel as a project manager. :)

[DigitalSprocket]

Yo stwert, I agree with Atomic full throttle. I think you are doing great as a project manager, don't be so hard on yourself. Don't get discouraged, we all have our own ways of taking charge and what has been said is only suggestions. I think the decision to create a deadline for preproduction is wise.
To add to our designs I sketched up some heads tonight. I'll try and come up with some more options for tomorrow. Don't forget to C&C!


http://bradyoo.com/extras/dt/fishingformonsters/heads.jpg

[stwert]

Thanks for the comments guys. And very nice sketches! I personally like the middle top and middle bottom. I think some like the top left might be too aggressive for the story, but just my opinion.

[DigitalSprocket]

Yeah, he is a bit angry isn't he :) . I was trying to get a full range of characters and I thought of the veteran fisherman when drawing him. The kind that doesn't really like his fisherman career but it puts food on the table. I think I like the Scottie on the bottom the best too or the geezer on the upper right. Thanks for the compliment.

[DigitalSprocket]

Really crud and quickly done but inspiration struck me after I went to bed. I knew I'd lose it if I didn't get this on paper so I roughed this out pretty fast. I call it the "Catch of the Day". As usual, critiques are welcome.


http://bradyoo.com/extras/dt/fishingformonsters/thecatch.jpg

[spam_septic]

@DigitalSprocket: Great sketches! I like the bottom middle best for the fisherman. I think he's perfect for the role.

The scene concept is brilliant! The only idea I can add is that it might be cool if the tip of the monster's long tail was breaching the surface just a tiny bit out in front of the boat (like a small fish jumping) -- maybe next to his bobber. That would explain why the fisherman is focused forward while the beast is looming behind. He's excited for a catch... he just doesn't realize what might be on his hook! Just a thought...

The best part about this sketch is that it would make a great still image, while also providing excellent fodder for a future animation!

[DigitalSprocket]

Thanks septic, I like your idea about the tail. I think it would be a good addition to the scene. In my head I saw the scene play out as if the monster had just raised from the waters. As the shadow raised over the fisherman he froze, listening to the water trickle back to the surface of the lake. Not knowing what was behind him, the fisherman has a moment of "Oh, Sh*t". All he knows is that it's massive and it has latched on to my boat.

[spam_septic]

Exactly, Sprocket. I think the two play well together... he sees the tail and is excited, as thinks he's got a big catch... Then the shadow covers him and he freezes... just like you envisioned... perhpas the catch was bigger than anticipated... hehe!

[atomic]

Awesome character sketches DigitalSprocket! I personally like the middle top and top right the most, perhaps even a mix between the two.
And that scene sketch is great as well. I like the idea of a small part of the monster taking the interest of the fisherman while the real enormous monster is rising behind him.

[stwert]

Just a reminder that tomorrow is the last day for posting designs and sketches. Big thanks to DigitalSprocket for the awesome sketches so far!

I do like your last sketch, however I'm wondering if the mood is meant to be somewhat comic or foreboding My reason for that is a comic image might not have the same punch in a relatively realistic style, compared to a more cartoony or stylized rendering as it sort of looks on the quick sketch. My thought was that a menacing approach would have more impact with a realistic rendering. Anyway, that's not meant as criticism at all, just my thoughts and question on the matter of mood.

[DigitalSprocket]

Hey thanks for the comments guys, I really appreciate it. Stwert: Criticism is more than welcome, its all constructive. It helps me learn and grow as an artist.
The mood of this was meant to be brooding and looming, I just sketch in that comic style because its its the easiest/fastest way for me to get my ideas to paper. If this is chosen I'll do a rendering in an appropriate style to the project. I'll have more faces up later today, I have a birthday to attend to so I'll have to wait till tonight.

Thanks again for the words all!

[stwert]

Yeah, I wasn't sure if the mood I got from the image was the mood you intended, and since I knew it was a rough quick sketch, that wasn't a point of criticism, just a question. Are you going to sketch out a body for your face too? That would be very cool :)

[Devere]

hi team,
been a busy week with internet giving me hell and bills to pay, but still sorry for the long wait just getting started on them working on whole body silhouettes though not very far yet, I'd love to hear how your feeling about ruff silhouettes for the character designs thus far. Here they are, gonna try get some cleaner more finished designs done done over this weekend, so all feed back will be considered.

[stwert]

Very cool designs Devere! I personally like the left one of the second scan best. I'm thinking our character should be looking like the victim in the final image, since he's not expecting any monster trouble to begin with.
Just a reminder that the deadline for designs is this evening, but there will be a chance for some final tweaks, added detail for the modellers benefit after we make a decision on the design. Keep it up!

[Devere]

uploading a few more variations to choose from
guess i'll modify which ever u like with details to look more like the victim as stated

[Devere]

a few more, quickies just did, okay based on the whole set make your decisions critiq and I'll work from that to make a character sheet with adjustments and character from various angles and facial expressions.

thanks for the earlier feed back Stwert now take a look at these, as soon as I get the word on which direction you like I'll move into refine sketching mode

[stwert]

Can't see an image, try reattaching?

[Devere]

i re-attached them all is that better now Stwert? can you see them?

[Devere]

it just hit me the appropriateness and design of fisherman should remind us of, he should be like that optimistic looney toons predator that doesn't know how bad of a day he's gonna have.

[stwert]

Yep, much better, looks great! I think we can get away with a bit of stylized character, but still aiming for relatively realistic. My only fear is having a caricature (I didn't spell that right) for the fisherman, and not matching it with the monster, since they will be modelled and sculpted by maybe 4 different people.
That being said, I like the third one, a bit older with a mustache is good.

[Devere]

Yep, much better, looks great! I think we can get away with a bit of stylized character, but still aiming for relatively realistic. My only fear is having a caricature (I didn't spell that right) for the fisherman, and not matching it with the monster, since they will be modelled and sculpted by maybe 4 different people.
That being said, I like the third one, a bit older with a mustache is good.

thanks Stwert
so that's the third page of second post right? (one in the overalls without the shirt and the afro sticking out the sides?
well I'll try to make him more realistic if it will fit overall look of the project better I was just thinking how much more dramatic acting you could get out of a cartoon character design. As I said if it's more realistic you really want then then I'll give it a go.

[Devere]

just want to make sure so spend my final moment tweaking the right character

[stwert]

Yes, that's the one. I think the final designs could still be a little bit stylized/exaggerated and the final image too, because it'll be near impossible to get photorealistic of course. However, if we aim for cartoony, I feel like we'll end up a bit disjointed. And since I've have made the decision to go with a realistic style, and atomic's done a fair bit of work on the boat (which isn't cartoony, but would fit with a slightly stylized look I think), I think we should stick with it. Hope that makes sense.

[Devere]

okay here are 2 head orthographies for the two you liked. How is the second choice looking do I need to exaggerate or push he features more.. bodies to come

[stwert]

Yep great stuff, the second guy looks great! I'd say lose the 'fro but just my opinion.

[DigitalSprocket]

Nice work Devere, I really like the tubby fisherman of your first set (second sheet). I like how casual he looks but confident as well. The posture is great. Your last guy reminds me of Gallagher, I was cracking myself up. :) Here are a few more heads with "hat" options. I'll try and throw a few body types up before the night is over but no guarantees, I had to escape the BDay to get these up. Happy Fishing!


http://bradyoo.com/extras/dt/fishingformonsters/heads02.JPG

[Devere]

thanks DigitalSprocket,

Your head designs are looking awesome especially liking the 2 on the right on the last page, smug ****y guy on top and the one right out of anger management on the bottom, two great possibly great characters that I wouldn't mind seeing them get what's coming to them.

I intended to do some bodies as well but eyes aren't what they used to be so have to call it quits and give em some rest for now , (getting irritated so easily now a days, beginning to wonder if my optometrist messed up my prescription cause I used to be able to draw foe days without end or might just be too much time working on the PC during the days.)

[stwert]

Alright, here's the plan. I'll make some decisions first and then sort out which of the designs will get voted on. We'll get some input from the community, then maybe get a couple refined drawings for the modellers from the final designs. Hope that's okay with everyone.

[stwert]

I've just gone through all 7 pages of this thread and given quite a bit of thought to all the designs offered up to this point. It's reeeeally hard for me to say one drawing or the other is worthy of being used for the final image. If I don't mention a sketch, it is NO reflection on the quality or merit of the sketch, just want to make that clear.

So with that said, here are a few ideas for each of three categories to be combined into our image, taking into consideration others comments as well as my own thoughts. I don't think a vote will work with multiple categories, and I don't want just a tallyof the ones people like. List your choice for each category and briefly mention how you feel they work together to create a pleasing scene.

Scene:
a) Monster bursting out -Atomic (pg. 1)
b) Under the surface -Stwert (pg. 2)
c) Behind you -DigitalSprocket (pg. 5)

Monster:
a) Under the surface monster -Stwert (pg. 2)
b) Large monster w/ spikes (center) -DigitalSprocket (pg. 3)

Fisherman:
a) Balding head w/ moustache (bottom, center) -DigitalSprocket (pg. 5)
b) Tubby body (first set, second image, left person) -Devere (pg. 6) (with one of the other heads tubbed out a bit? -my comment)
c) Moustached fisherman in overalls (potentially with less bushy hair -my comment) (second set, third image) -Devere (pg. 6) (head refined on pg. 7)

and finally, to top it off (pun intended)
Hats:
a) None
b) Captain hat (lower left) -DigitalSprocket (pg. 7)
c) Floppy hat (for lack of a better name) (lower right) -DigitalSprocket (pg. 7)

So there we go, hopefully got the page numbers and descriptions right, let's hear your votes/thoughts. We'll give this a few days to get everyone's opinion, and then I'll make a final decision (not necessarily based on strict numbers, but definitely on people's comments and preferences). And a huge thanks to everyone who posted art and who offered constructive criticism so far, this is going to be a great project!

[atomic]

Scene: C
Monster: I would say A, or B if it is supposed to be a giant squid. :)
Fisherman: I was thinking about a old bearded man with a belly, or A.
Hats: C

Hope all of that makes sense. :)

[DigitalSprocket]

Hey Stwert, let me know if these are not the correct drawings yo were thinking of so I can change them. Thought I'd put up a easy to read options sheet, page jumping free :D .

http://bradyoo.com/extras/dt/fishingformonsters/choices.jpg

[stwert]

You rock man! That's exactly it.

[spam_septic]

Great work folks!

I'll go with:

Scene C
Creature B
Character A (with body C)
Hat C

[DigitalSprocket]

Hmm, I thought I'd see some more thoughts on the matter by now. Well, I thought about it for awhile and here's my thoughts:

Scene: Either B or C, both of these have a good view of each character while A makes the fisherman a secondary element of the scene. I am more partial to C for the same reason, B doesn't lend itself to very much scenery aside from the water.
Creature: Either, both are so close that the two can really be seen as one.
Character: I dig the belly, B
Hat: C, its such a classic. :D

[stwert]

Yeah, I was hoping to have a bit more input too... but hopefully we'll get more feedback once people start modelling. Speaking of which, I think we're about ready to get started on that!

It looks like we're going to do Scene C, with monster B (though elements of A can show up, you're right, they're very similar), and the fisherman will wear hat C. That leaves us with the fisherman himself, but I think the winner has to be the bellied fisherman. He'll be great for showing shock when he realizes the monster's there. The only problem is that both the heads fit a relatively skinny person, but I think we can do a slightly chubbier hybrid of A and C, maybe? What do you guys think?

DigitalSprocket, I believe you requested doing a complete version of the scene with all elements, are you still up for that? I'm not quite sure about the straight head-on composition of the scene, maybe separate/angle it out a bit?

[Devere]

well I pretty much agree with the choice scene c, with bellied fisherman and that lovely hat making faces suite the fat body isn't much of a problem. just gotta add a little fat to them try make it look natural. if no once else is gonna vote on it then I'll start refining teh chubby figure more to include face chosen. if that's alrite with you Stwert

[stwert]

That sounds good Devere, a front and side orthographic full body and refined head would be excellent.

[DigitalSprocket]

Right on all, lets keep the ball rolling. I would like to take on the challenge of a full render stewrt, something else I've been wanting to get under my belt. I'll start roughing out the scene and bodies in photoshop then I'll wait to detail until we get your drawings back Devere.

[jpcanepa1@aol.com]

Dude, I do love the salty old seamen, but I think the scotsman matches with the sea creature a bit better. So I vote for the Scotsman. Awesome drawings!

[Devere]

Hi team, I'm gonna get back on it as soon as I can, this weeks as been thankfully busy with tonnes of freelance, production work and now another job just came in to make a prop for a television set. but needs to be done by the end of the week if they can or will extend it till Sunday I'm gonna take the job. Gotta take em while their rolling in.

[DigitalSprocket]

Hey hey! Whats up John! Thanks for the comments bud, good to hear from you. I like the scotty myself too, hopefully we can integrate him together like stwert was saying.

Devere, congrats on the work. Its totally understandable man, gotta make a living and during these times you gotta jump on it while you can. That works out for me too, I'm gonna be visiting my Mom this weekend and work has been crazy this week (makes nights exhausting). I'll begin on Monday and get us closer with scene layout. Have a good weekend all!

[Evans]

Another idea would be to create a hydra like creature with lets say 3 heads for example and 3 fishermen, each trying to capture his respective head(Gonna draw it if I find time).

As for the animation, perhaps create short animations all part of the same story(episodes like).

[Devere]

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10127135/old%20man%20character%20%20design%20face%20copy.jpg
REally sorry for the BIG delay all, been extremely busy over he past few weeks with some freelance I'm doign at the clients studio a good 3 hours away from home. So with 6 hours in transit plus 9 hours work i've fallen behind on a few personal projects including this oe, but it's all good can't compaling about work will try to get more done in coming thanks giving weekend.

here is a 3quarter render of what I was thinking for the comibned heads, if this is good i'll do orthos of it.

[stwert]

Looks fantastic Devere. I think you've really captured the character that we'll be working with.
I was starting to think this project was dying, but I'd be really interested to hear how many people are still interested in this project.
If you're relatively new to the forums and want to join in, we'd be most happy to accommodate you. Please read the README (http://www.digitaltutors.com/forum/showthread.php?21771-Community-Project-README) post and browse a few of the other threads to get up to speed, and I'm really hoping we can get into the modelling phase. Remember, as we have all the elements essentially nailed down, there's nothing to stop us from starting blocking out the props, environments and characters.

[atomic]

Yea very nice sketch Devere, I also think thats the kind of character we were looking for. The only thing for me is that the character seems a bit on the angry and evil side. :p to clarify what I ment for the character's charisma to be, you can look at the fisherman scene from godzilla.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkbKhBeOfic

And is there anything we can do to get the modeling started? because everything except for the character is layed out. I don't want this project to die away. So please everyone who also wanted to be a part of a community project, let yourself be heard and sign up for one of the tasks. And let this project get shape! :)